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Re: Damn..
Wed, May 11, 2005 - 2:10 PM"A natural end"? Are you flippin' kidding me?
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Re: Damn..
Wed, May 11, 2005 - 4:35 PMI'm just pissed as hell. It isn' tlike HBO to leave an audience hanging..aren't they supposed to be the answer to gratuitous idiot TV?
grrrrrrrr....
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Re: Damn..
Wed, May 11, 2005 - 11:55 PMYou can cancel your HBO subscription and tell both HBO and your cable/satellite company the reason. Don't reward them for not carrying your favorite show.
Personally, I won't do this right away cuz I can't live without Deadwood, Bill Maher, Six Feet Under, Entourage, HBO Original Movies, Da Ali G Show, etc. However, there are "gaps" when HBO doesn't carry original episodes of any of these, and then I do cancel temporarily for just a few months and then renew again. Without Carnivale, I'm anticipating that these "gaps" will occur more frequently, especially since SFU is in its final season.
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 4:53 AMI'm satisfied with leaving it there - although the ending was a bit weak. Leave some to the imagination! Personally, I'm glad they aren't going to push it past this point and go all "Matrix" on us and start setting us up for "sequels." -
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 5:39 AMAre you serious? There is a difference between an ambiguous ending that makes you think and an unfinished ending that leaves you hanging. -
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 6:07 AMAhh, so it's now official and I can finally speak.
First of all, I haven't commented to the press yet, so these are my
first thoughts on this matter, and I can't think of a better group
of people to share them with. Lots of you guys have been there since
the beginning, and I've enjoyed your analysis, arguments, cheers and
occasional gentle (but well thought-out) jeers.
I've read all the posts since Beth announced the cancellation (Could
somebody please tell me where this woman gets her information? Talk
about jacked-in!), have taken heart and encouragement from your kind
words, have shared your outrage and sense of loss.
If you're hoping I'll slam HBO, I'm afraid you're in for a bit of a
disappointment.
The fact is, nobody—-and I mean *nobody*-—would have even considered
financing and broadcasting a show this expensive, this different,
this technically challenging, even if the creator was a seasoned
television writer-producer. The fact that I was an untested talent
makes their courage all the more extraordinary. I will always
appreciate Carolyn's dedication and passion to this project, Chris's
support, and
Miranda's steady, guiding hand.
True, like many of you, I am ambivalent: HBO giveth, and HBO taketh
away.
I feel like a father whose baby was doomed in vitro, somehow
delivered, treated and kept alive by a brilliant team of surgeons,
only to see that same team yank the child off life-support just as
she began to show improvement.
Do I think their decision was boneheaded? Yes, absolutely.
Do I understand why they made it? Again, yes, absolutely.
Carnivale was an expensive show. Costs-per-episode have been guessed
at on this board, and in every case those estimations have been low.
Way low. Carnivale, in fact, represented one of the most costly—-if
not *the* most costly—-pattern-budget ever invested in a weekly
series in television history. If anybody has any resentment toward
HBO executives, consider this:
• They have a fiduciary responsibility toward their stock-holders;
• The show was hugely expensive;
• The reviews were mixed.
• The audience was not large enough to support it.
Game. Set. Match.
Was Carnivale thrown into a hopeless time-slot? Definitely. Could we
have done better with more promotion and support? Probably. Were
marketing opportunities missed? Undoubtedly. Would we have broken
out had we gotten a third season? I'm absolutely sure of it.
Would I bet my career, my reputation and--more importantly--tens of
millions of stockholder dollars on it?
I sincerely do not know.
Would you?
I'm not here to play apologist for the network. Far from it. But in
fairness, these things need saying, so there they are.
HBO taketh away, but, damnit...
... HBO giveth.
I was fortunate enough, for a too-brief, shining moment, to be part
of a project in which every last contributor believed with all their
hearts—-from the production assistants to the network executives.
Everybody on the show knew we were doing something special. Nobody
delivered less than their best work. This is an exceedingly rare
thing in the television world, where talented cast and crew are,
quite frankly, wasted on pabulum. When asked what they're working
on, the all-too-routine answer is "Some piece-of-s—-t cop show (or
doctor show, or lawyer show)."
Meanwhile, we all got to work on Carnivale.
Now *that* is cool.
And you guys watched it. And got it. And appreciated it.
You guys counted down to Sunday nights.
You reveled in the show's mysteries, its characters, its world. You
taped it, you TIVOed it, you played and replayed it. You caught
every blooper and anachronism, every real and imagined flaw in our
internal logic. You praised its authenticity and historocity. You
researched our mythology. Unlike many of our critics, you not only
welcomed the show's intellectual and narrative challenges, but
embraced them!
Not one teeny, tiny shred of our time, trouble and work was wasted
on you.
And that is very, *very* cool.
Folks have been asking what I want them to do in the face of this,
Okay, then. If there's one thing I want from you guys, it's to
simply know this:
Carnivale is not dead
Raymond Chandler was once asked by a reporter how he felt about
Hollywood ruining all his books. He simply pointed at a shelf behind
him and said, "Hollywood hasn't ruined my books. They're all right
there."
Similarly, I might point at my boxed set of Season 1 (and soon-to-be-
issued Season 2) and say, "The network didn't kill my show. It's
right there. Wanna watch a few episodes?"
Carnivale, and this wonderful community that's joined to celebrate
it, will continue to live as long as the work is viewed and enjoyed.
It's pretty clear now that, for whatever reasons, we never found our
audience.
But it's not too late.
Lend your DVDs to friends. Get them out there into the world.
Capture eyeballs, collect converts. Donate sets to your local
libraries. Throw viewing parties. Start discussion groups.
For God's sake, organize a Live CarnyCon!
And maybe—-just maybe—-in the (hopefully) not so distant future,
some bright young executive will say, "Hey, remember that show
Carnivale? You know, people are still talking about that! There's a
monster fan base out there!" Maybe they'll order a season. Maybe a
series of films...
Who knows? Stranger things have (and do) happen.
You can bet I, as well as many in our cast and crew, will be ready
to support you in any way we can. As for me, I'll be weighing in on
the lists, participating in chats like always. I'm not going
anywhere. You guys are stuck with me.
Granted, it'll take some effort, but as a very wise friend of mine
named Samson once said, "When it comes to livin, dyin's the easy
part." And everything's impossible, til it ain't.
Fans, the ball's in your court, now. Take it and run with it.
Dazzle me.
I love you guys.
D. -
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Re: Damn..
Fri, May 13, 2005 - 1:21 PMYeah, buy the DVDs!! Family Guy was brought back to life because of monumental DVD sales and Chappelle's Show was renewed to the tune of $50 million, mainly due to huge DVD sales. Put your $$ where your mouth is and hope/pray for a miracle (it's happened before, could happen again). Especially since a show that costs as much as Carnivale could re-coup some of its production costs and perhaps even turn a profit through sales of DVDs. This happens all the time in the world of Hollywood where a theatrical film doesn't make up its budget at the box office, but turns into a money-maker through its DVD release.
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 7:40 AM"Are you serious? There is a difference between an ambiguous ending that makes you think and an unfinished ending that leaves you hanging."
Yes. I am quite serious. And this is a case of the former, not the latter.
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 10:07 AMHEY EVERYONE:
It is possible some other network would pick up this show?
Is it really THAT expensive to produce? Seems like Deadwood is a "period drama" and requires special FX too?
Why is HBO so concerned about money when they have so many subscribers?
I can't believe a piece of crap show like Sex in the City lasts an enternity. (I'm sorry you fans out there, but you've got to come to grips with the fact that the acting is bad, the stories predictable and the show is way overrated)
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 10:15 AMdidn't that "email from Clancy Brown" tell us not to pay attention to rumors and premature/unfounded press releases?
the offical announcement is in June, right? Isn't this sc fi press release really late in the publishing? -
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 10:33 AMI seem to have reached the "Bargaining" phase of my grieving process - "maybe we can convince HBO to do a mini-series to complete some of the story" blah blah blah...
Is there any info on when Season 2 will be on DVD?
Helen. -
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 10:56 AMEnh.
I confess: I hated the finale so much I lost all emotional attachment to the show. Evil Sophie, ok. Evil Sophie kills Jonesy for no damn good reason? Not ok at all.
Besides, I liked the meandering and the mystery of the first season. The second season had none of the ambiguity or the puzzles. It was all about getting on with it.
The line to beat me up just for saying that may form to the right. Take a number, please. -
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 1:46 PMMessage: 19
Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 15:22:12 -0000
From: "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: in response to dan's letter
--- In CarnivaleHBO@yahoogroups.com, "ponce311"
<vincent_de_leone@s...> wrote:
> will we ever find out what happens to the main characters. are they
> alive or dead. a season 2 dvd will only work if some questions are
> answered. i think we are owed something since we did watch this for 2
> years . at least answer if the end of times is near before i make my
> next car payment
Of course you're owed something, but not a cheap slap in the face like
a quick, bloodless rundown of what happens to the characters through
the end of the story.
Carnivale has never been about the destination. After all, look
around. We're all still here, so we know the devil didn't have his
day and bring on Armegeddon, despite the successful tests at
Alamogordo. The destination is self-evident.
You want to know the end of the story? Look in the mirror.
No, Carnivale is and always has been about the journey. And that is
all in the telling.
In order to protect the telling, I won't ever release a "quick
digest" of future plots. And it would be BS anyway if I did, because
even though I may know the "recipe," the actual "cooking" happens in a
room with other writers, all of whom add their own ingredients. And
then there's the directors, who brings stuff to the party. And the
department heads, of course. And the actors, who have a huge impact
on interpreting the characters' behavior.
So I'll be taking a tip from J.K. Rowling, and the tale will stay
inside my head until the opportunity comes around that will allow me
to finish it and do it justice. Please do not ask me. My least
favorite word in the English language is "no," but I'll use it. Again
and again and again and isn't that boring? My lips are sealed.
All except for this because, damnit, it's just not fair to leave you
hanging:
(SPOILER SPACE)
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Neither Ben nor Justin are dead.
Jonesy recovers from the gunshot wound.
D. -
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 2:09 PMthere's light at the end of the tunnel!!
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 2:34 PMShannon -
I appreciate your remarks - I was really shocked and angry by the season finale too...
I have not make this remark before, but like you I actually preferred season one. There were fantastic epidodes in season 2, (and I am bitting my nails in anticipation of the dvd release) but I was disturbed and disappointed by the *faster* pace, questions being answered so quickly, etc. I had a strong sense that the writers wanted to get as much covered and answered in case the show was canceled.
So, as much as I am emotionally attached to Carnivale I will gladly stand in line with you.
Helen. -
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Re: Damn..
Thu, May 12, 2005 - 3:47 PMThe things i post Ive been getting from the Carnivale Yahoo Group which has over 5000 members. Dan Knauf posts there every know and then. -
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Re: Damn..
Fri, May 13, 2005 - 8:02 AMMore shit from Dan:
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:36:19 -0000
From: "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@yahoo.com>
Subject: Really Important
I've been very reluctant to set "limits" to our interaction, and it
kinda pains me to do so, but if I don't, I could lose my house. And
me and my family really like our house.
Like the rest of you, to sign up and post, I had to set up a Yahoo
account. That includes a mailbox.
Some folks have sent me emails. I occasionally read them (they're
usually very nice), but don't respond. Not to be rude, but I just
can't possibly initiate a back and forth correspondence with so many
people. Most of them understand, I think, because I have yet to get a
"Hey! Why didn't you write me back, Mr. Big Stuff" kinda letter.
Anyway, recently, I've begun receiving story pitches. I delete them
as soon as I see the subject, but this nevertheless creates some very
real liability issues for me.
I really don't want to shut down the box. So please, please PLEASE
don't force me to do so by emailing your series ideas, plots, or any
other intellectual property (scripts, stories, outlines, sonnets,
grocery lists).
If you do, I will send Varlyn Stroud along to pay you a visit. Or,
worse, I'll post your name on this list, and everybody else will hate
you and call you rude names.
Smiles and giggles,
Daniel "Little Man" Knauf
PS - No apologies necessary from the guilty. I have no hard feelings
whatsoever. I know you meant well, and you just didn't know any
better. But this is just a sad, legal reality. Thanx, D.
PPS - I'm equally good for L.A. or Las Vegas. D.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:42:20 -0000
From: "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Gettin' the word out today
--- In CarnivaleHBO@yahoogroups.com, LAURIE STEPHENS <noexit@f...> wrote:
> We were just talking about bummer stickers in the chats! Someone
suggested "I'm sticking with Carnivale." I'd settle for a "Save
Carnivale" or "Bring Back Carnviale"- I'd love to drive around town
with one of those on... what about Save Carnivale, ask me how!!!
>
> Anyone?
>
Beth and I were just talking about this. I like "What would Brother
Justin Do?" Cryptic, I know, but sinister and fun. Just like me. -
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Re: Damn..
Fri, May 13, 2005 - 11:07 AM"What Would Brother Justin Do?"
Oh my god. I want that on a t-shirt. -
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Re: Damn..
Fri, May 13, 2005 - 12:08 PMJust go to Cafe Press, and make one up! Then everyone can order one! -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Damn..
Tue, May 17, 2005 - 1:47 PMI think we need to take this matter up with management. -
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Unsu...
Re: Damn..
Tue, May 24, 2005 - 10:33 AMman that jonesy sure does cheat death a lot!!!
p.s. I would walk a mile for any brother justin paraphernalia.
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Re: Damn..
Sat, June 11, 2005 - 7:10 AMThat's a great t-shirt...I'm in on that one
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Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 1:08 PMyou sound like a super anti-hero:
Super Depressed
and his sidekick Doldrums
What are your special powers? -
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Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 1:22 PMmy super powers...magically regenerating my serotonin levels when my favorite shows get cancelled haha -
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Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 1:36 PMonce I had the power to push a 9.5 pound boy out of a 10 cm. opening in my body . . . that's about as super as I ever got :)
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Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 1:43 PMHey you got me there...I'd say you continue being a super hero raising that 9.5lb boy into a happy adult in the crazy world of ours haha -
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Unsu...
Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 3:10 PMIm still trying to get over this..... This week I was able to digest cereal and cans of soup. I was able to open up the blinds and let some light in. I'm able to live again...but...ya know...It's hard.
*cough*
Seriously this BS. There's so much left undone with show, which was superb... Characters who i believed were actually tied further into the "grand plot" will never be revealed further. What happens to sophie...I thought she'd turn up pregnant with an alpha Omega child...If brother Justin is still alive... then we are still marching towards complete distruction. And Did any characters die while Sophie revieved Justin. HBO can completely suck my arse over this... Six feet is gone...I had hoped to nurse my withdrawl with Carnivale. Really sucks.
But a magnificent show. The last show (now not a season closer but series Finale) was extreamly..just...mezmerizing! I'll miss evil Iris, one of my favorite characters. I loved her line about If she's lucky she'll see her brother in hell. haha. and the Snake Lady...such an underused character and actress.
Damn! I've said my peace. -
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Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 5:19 PM"Six feet is gone..."
Six Feet Under is alive and well and playing on a tv near you!
Maybe they'll make a movie sometime, called 'Carnivale: the new beginning" or something corny like that . . . They certainly have a built in audience to market it to. -
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Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 5:36 PMThis thread depresses me.
Six Feet is on Monday Nights at 9. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 8:05 PMdo your little napoleon dynamite dance :) -
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Unsu...
Re: Damn..
Mon, June 13, 2005 - 8:13 PMIm Totally aware that there's a new season airing now...I meant after this season is over...with Six Feet...what else is there?
No 6th season of six feet, No third season of Carnivale.
*chokes up again* -
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Re: Damn..
Tue, June 14, 2005 - 9:34 AMYeah, what is the story with Rome? Who's producing it? Staring in it? I haven't researched it all yet, anyone else? -
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Re: Damn..
Tue, July 5, 2005 - 1:12 AMThere's still The Sopranos to look forward to. I guess.
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Re: Damn..
Wed, August 10, 2005 - 10:37 AMFrom what I've read of Rome, it follows two legionairres from Julius Caesar's victorious armies after the sacking of Gaul. The backdrop story is Caesar's glorious return to Rome, and the ensuing chaos it creates among the senate, people, etc..
Et tu, Brute?
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